Perspectives: On Grief with Bianca & Matthew

Grief affects every one of us.

But it doesn't need to be isolating, and you don't need to be a professional to give support.

This episode welcomes Bianca Pointner and Matthew Liston from the MK Gandhi Institute for Nonviolence. They join us to shed light on the transformative journey through grief and its intersection with nonviolence.

Since grief can easily lead to depression and isolation, many are surprised by the solace of the collective embrace and strength in the shared vulnerability of a grief circle. As we navigate the complex emotional terrain from gut-wrenching loss to everyday letdowns, we uncover the profound ways in which grief is woven into our very humanity. Together, we reveal the cathartic power of communal healing and how it can forge stronger connections and a deeper understanding of ourselves and others.

Embracing our guests' poignant narratives, this heartfelt exploration ventures into the misconceptions and realities of grief work, highlighting the surprising ways that shared sorrow can create bonds rather than barriers. Our conversation extends into the healing practices of 'grief hygiene' and the pivotal role of grassroots mental health initiatives, offering a refreshing perspective on how communities can come together to support one another without solely relying on professional intervention.

Bianca and Matthew's experiences with grief circles underscore the importance of communal spaces in fostering resilience, offering a beacon of hope for anyone navigating the stormy seas of loss.

Resources:

• Registration for our Grief Circles till June 2024
• Joanna Macy’s Work: The Work that Reconnects

Chapters

• 0:02 Exploring Grief and Nonviolence
• 1:37 What is Grief?
• 5:36 How did you get into Grief work?
• 10:49 What are Misconceptions about Grief?
• 14:14 What do grief circles look like?
• 23:02 Grief as a Practice
• 27:54 Grassroots Mental Health

Transcript

Erin Thompson : 0:02

Welcome to Perspectives on Peace Transforming Tomorrow, the podcast brought to you by the MK Gandhi Institute for Nonviolence. In this podcast series, we explore subjects and themes that connect to the four pillars named in the Institute's mission statement, those being nonviolence, education, racial justice, restorative practices and sustainability. My name's Aaron Thompson and for this episode I'm joined by my Institute colleague, katie Thomas. We want to say hello to the people.

Katie Thomas: 0:31

Hello everyone. It's good to be here.

Erin Thompson : 0:35

And the topic is grief. Our guests today are, in fact, a couple more Institute staffers, namely Bianca Pointner and Matthew Liston, or Matt as we call him, who, along with a former Institute director, kit Miller, are holding weekly grief circles, and so our conversation this week will center around grief and those grief circles that are being held here out of the Institute and, in fact, online. So, matt, bianca, do you too want to say anything by way of intro?

Matthew Liston: 1:08

Thanks for having us here. I've heard her tell of these podcast interviews and it's my first time being in the same space while one is happening, so I'm looking forward to talking to you. Indeed.

Bianca Pointner: 1:22

I'm really honored and I think it's really lovely to be here. Yeah, I've been also hearing about the podcast. I've been listening to your podcast, which I really appreciate, and, yeah, I'm happy to be here and chat with you.

Erin Thompson : 1:35

Fantastic. What is grief?

Bianca Pointner: 1:39

No big question at all there. Okay, so for me, grief is just kind of like the experience of, and a sense of loss, and loss can show up in so many different shapes and forms, and I think that after chatting with Matt about today a little bit more, I think I realized that grief is just such a big part and a central part of being human and the human fabric. Yeah, that's how I would describe grief.

Matthew Liston: 2:12

When I think about grief, I think about it as a longing and a hope for a reality that's different from our current reality. I mean that could be related to big things, like I wish my loved one was still in my life in their physical form. Or it could be something as small, as like I'm grieving that I slept two hours through my alarm this morning and now feel sluggish. Or it could be even something like wow, I'm grieving that fall went by super quickly and I didn't get a chance to go outside and really enjoy the colors as much as I wanted.

Erin Thompson : 2:48

Okay. So it sounds like there's quite a spectrum, trans of scale, as far as how people can experience grief. It can feel big and tied into, like big life changes or processes, or small and tie in balance something that's happened like this morning, for example. How does nonviolence connect with grief?

Matthew Liston: 3:08

I could start us off for this one. For me, when I think about nonviolence, I think about the use of the term as something active and something that is. It's not just a passive word or sound, a passive philosophy. And so thinking about nonviolence is the active, striving towards doing no harm. So if we think about nonviolence is actually working towards doing no harm, and the way that I think about grief is that grief it lives within all of us as part of, like Yakuza, as part of being human, and grief needs to wait out. And so if we keep grief inside of us, if we keep it inside of us without opening a door for it to come out in a productive way, it's going to find a cracks and it's going to squeeze its way out, and that often comes out in unproductive ways that harm us and harm other people.

Bianca Pointner: 3:55

Thanks, matt for that. My answer to that would be kind of similar. But also I think that the practice of nonviolence for me, and practicing it with you all every day, isn't in some way just kind of like the refusal of continuing to buy into or, you know, feed into whatever causes harm. And that can show up in small and big ways too. And I think one of the ways I mean the big ways we see everyday, right like everywhere and in small ways I feel like just the avoidance of the harm within ourselves. So the pain within ourselves is also causing harm, like refusing to look at what's painful.

Bianca Pointner: 4:36

And I think when you just read out again the pillars of the Garni Institute on Nonviolent Violence and the work we do, I think each one of them starts with the step of honoring the pain for the world. And that's really what it is and I think it's a big first step in organizing and reimagining the world we want to live in is to honor what's really not working and what's painful and yeah, like Matt said, even when you have missed out on witnessing the fall or being present with it, and then what consequences that has. It seems so small but it's like, yeah, grieving that oh, I missed out on something. And what consequences does that have? Like, how does that show up? It's just like an awareness.

Erin Thompson : 5:16

Thank you, Biafra.

Katie Thomas: 5:18

Yeah, thank you both so much, because hearing how you frame grief and nonviolence has been, yeah, very helpful for me, as I'm still figuring out really, like what that huge word means for me. So that's, yeah, very helpful. So, to kind of look more at you two and your journey into this work, I'm wondering how did you get into grief work and like what part of this work really resonates with you?

Matthew Liston: 5:43

This morning I was thinking I was remembering like the first time I participated in a grief circle at the Gandhi Institute.

Matthew Liston: 5:49

And it was kind of funny it was the first time I participated in the grief circle, it was also the first time I facilitated a grief circle and I was also interpreting from English to Spanish and Spanish to English for one of the group members, and so it was a lot, and it was part of one of the Gandhi Institute's nonviolence retreats which we had in the spring and we had partnered with AmeriCorps in Rochester and so we had, you know, a handful of AmeriCorps staff plus or from AmeriCorps volunteers plus community members.

Matthew Liston: 6:14

And then we had some folks from Venezuela who were up here and so I was interpreting for one of the Venezuelan staff members and I kind of volunteered to lead this breakout grief circle, and without knowing fully what it was about. And then there's a lot of connection that happened and it sort of does kind of like like this great container for people to build connection in terms of an experience that's usually pretty isolating, and so I appreciated the experience but didn't make it like a more irregular practice until recently, and I think after my brother died I was really experiencing just how much that grief finds a way out if you don't open that door, and so decided to make a more commitment to myself and to the people around me to have more of a regular practice, and so I think in the last year or so has really been when I've tried, when I've been more intentional about focusing on grief and finding productive ways to open the door for it.

Bianca Pointner: 7:13

Also, katie, you just named it, you're still kind of figuring it out and I think I'm also still figuring it out. I just want to name that because I think it also goes to the term of grief work. It's like it really doesn't feel like or it's something that I need to be certified in or whatever you see as a profession in work, whatever it's like really a practice and an exploration still for myself and in community and I think for me growing up. I think, yeah, my pain, my word felt actually pretty limited because whenever I showed or expressed pain, it was met with discomfort or it was maybe evaluated or judged and it's like that's just how, like my, the society, the culture around me and those sort of people who raised me handled it right. It was like I'm comfortable in something to be avoided, very similar to conflict, even though it's such a natural process of who we are. And I remember the only space in which grief was expressed was really just when someone died and we went to a funeral and that's when it was expressed and then life goes on and it was like, oh, okay, we grieve, the night's done and it was not a continuation of, like, honoring the pain that stays with us.

Bianca Pointner: 8:33

And then over time I met and witnessed people who unapologetically just say yep, I'm not doing fine, and just saying that is like yeah. We say, how are you doing? And it's like, yeah, fine, just good, it's going. But for someone to just unapologetically say, no, I'm not actually doing good, it's really hard right now. That was like an eye-opening aspect for me, and I've witnessed people who have gone through tremendous loss in their life but have embodied this huge spectrum of joy that they were also capable of expressing because they were tapping into the depths of their grief. So it felt like wow, what's that about? Like there's some kind of magic, like maybe I can open up the spectrum of how deeply I can feel, whatever it is, when I honor and express myself also in what's perceived to be negative, uncomfortable.

Bianca Pointner: 9:28

So, yeah, this is how kind of like over time, I witnessed grief or like discomfort in that. And then, yeah, my first grief circle was also really it was in Germany 10 years ago and it was not a great experience. I actually didn't like. It Felt very hierarchical and strange and performative. But then, yeah, I came to the Institute and I was surrounded by people who have gone through grief and named it. I joined my first grief circle and what was powerful about it was there was just a witnessing of it, just being present, with no judgment, evaluation or advice giving none of that just being with one another, and that opened up a way of community and beloved community. Really, for me, that was really powerful and then, yeah, I just wanted to keep being in that space and practice and learn.

Katie Thomas: 10:17

Thank you, both for speaking to what brought you to this work. So you both kind of alluded to this and speaking about your journeys to grief work. But I know a lot of us kind of come up with some misconceptions or we're told stories about grief that may not be the full story or the right story, and I think grief is kind of similar in a conflict in ways, where it feels like such a big abstract word and we all go through it and we're all like, okay, I know what that is, but what actually is it? What do I do with that? So my next question is what are any stigmas or misconceptions around grief or grief work that you've encountered in your time doing this work?

Bianca Pointner: 10:59

So there's a couple, yeah. So I think again that maybe there's this misconception that it's something that you need to go through alone, that's not something that can be shared. And actually I think there's also this misconception that grief is something disconnecting, when what I've at least experienced it can be a very connecting process and practice you go through. There's this maybe that's kind of like in relation to how we hold grief circles, but that it is something where there's like one facilitator or one person who holds the space and is responsible for the space. But Matt and I just discussed earlier that both him and me whoever holds the circles also kid we kind of co-hold them and we actually actively participate in it as well. So it's like a very just, non-hierarchical space. It is a circle, all voices can be heard.

Bianca Pointner: 11:54

I think one misconception maybe about the circles and now I'm talking actually about the misconceptions of the circles that we do, but tying back to what maybe the misconception about grief circles is is that you have to show up and say something like you can just be a witness and be present. There's no force, that you have to express yourself. And, yeah, we basically hold each other in it and we don't give advice or anything. We just with one another and see how it lands in us afterwards. And maybe one misconception is that I think there's a fear that once I'm opening up that part of myself, it goes on and on and on. I'm so scared that I can't stop the grief or I stopped the pain or stopped the tears. And I think it's not about wallowing in it and, so to speak in a judgmental language, it's not about staying in it, but being with it and then letting it pass and move through you.

Bianca Pointner: 12:46

So it's not about just wanting to just be in the grief. It's pretty magical actually, once you open it up and you allow it to happen, what it's almost like, your soul opens up for other things and other emotions, and I can't really describe it. It's actually a spiritual practice for me.

Matthew Liston: 13:02

Yeah, while I was listening to Biaqa, it was reminding me of a chapter in Roske's book Insighting Joy, which is actually the first chapter, where he talks about how joy and sorrow are inextricably linked. And the joy that we experience, its companion is sorrow, and to truly know joy, we need to know sorrow, and by bringing those two together and having spaces where we can share our sorrows and not necessarily that we're sorrowing over the exact same thing, but that in common we have sorrow then we build solidarity, and when we build solidarity, that insights more joy and more shared sorrow, and so it's a process that feeds itself. Another stigma or misconception that comes up for me is that often, especially if you Google or look online about resources for grief or quotes about grief, so many of them are about losing a loved one or losing a pet, and for me that is a part of grief and it's one slice of the pie.

Matthew Liston: 14:01

Like Biaqa was saying, there's so many other things that we can feel grief over on a regular basis, and so I think grief isn't just about losing a loved one, and it is about many other parts of our life.

Erin Thompson : 14:15

Thanks, Steve, both for those answers. So could you kind of bring us into a typical grief circle, if you will?

Matthew Liston: 14:22

We have online grief circles that we right now we offer each Thursday from 12 to 1 Eastern time, and then we also have occasional in-person grief circles and the online grief circles. The way that they kind of are structured right now is that folks join at the beginning and then we have a brief summary of kind of how the hour will be spent. We do a check-in round for each person to introduce who they are and share why it's important for them to be in the space or what's bringing them to the space that day, and then we often go our own ways for 15 or 20 minutes and during that time, people who are in the grief circles use that time to connect with what's heavy on their heart, to connect with what they would like other people to share the load of bearing and carrying and people do that in a variety of different ways. Some people draw, some people write, some people listen to music, stretch, go for a walk we had one person composed a song during that time and then, after that individual reflection time, we come back together.

Matthew Liston: 15:32

During that together time, each person has the opportunity to share if they want, and they can share as much or as little as they want, and Bianca was saying earlier, it's totally optional Choose not to share, and that's totally fine. They're still participating in the co-holding process of the grief circle During that sharing time. There is often a concern in many spaces where people express grief and other people are. They worry about receiving advice or other people commenting on what they've just shared. And so during our grief circles we really focus on after each person is shared, take a breath in, let it out and then say I hear you or thanks for sharing, as a way to recognize what they've said and also co-hold the burden that they put out there. Then we usually wrap it up with the quote or another or sharing something else, anything else you would add, bianca.

Bianca Pointner: 16:30

No, they pretty much sums up the online circles as we have been holding them.

Erin Thompson : 16:37

So were these online circles an adaptation, then, of the in-person ones.

Bianca Pointner: 16:41

Bianca, can you talk a little bit?

Erin Thompson : 16:42

about how those work.

Bianca Pointner: 16:44

And the adaptation really just happened at the beginning of the pandemic, when we were basically okay now we all download Zoom, I guess, and we're working from home and figure that reality out and we realized, okay, we are all going through a massive collective loss right now and change, so let's move them online. Before then, and now again, we had in-person circles and they were structured very similarly, but you have the beauty of being in person and sharing the space physically. So we would really put an intention on how we set up the space at the institute. So we have circles lined up like chairs lined up in a circle, we have some candlelight, we have a centerpiece, which are usually a couple of candles, flowers. We kind of set the mood like surround ourselves by beauty in a way, aesthetically, have some good light, and then, yeah, we do the same thing where we just do a check-in round to ask what brings people to the space and let them introduce themselves.

Bianca Pointner: 17:47

And then, yeah, we go a separate ways to the thing that we do in the online circles of, like, some creative expressions, some go for a walk, some journal, some listen to music, and then we circle back and often in circle processes there's talking pieces where we go one by one, but I like to just let it kind of popcorn style. Whoever feels moved to speak first can speak first. Sometimes there's big pauses between each sharing. You can hear people's deep breaths in and out. You know you just take really truly present with one another and whoever wants to share shares, and yeah, and then we. Then we wrap it up with, like mad said, a poem or yeah, just maybe a little meditation practice, and then we go our ways and thank each other and yeah, this is how the great circles usually go in person here I Appreciate the answer and you mentioned, bianca, that it's kind of it is a spiritual practice for you, so you let listeners know is there any religious component into these gatherings?

Bianca Pointner: 18:45

Um here the institute, or for me at the. Institute. I wouldn't say so. No, yeah, I want to say more, but let's just know no, it's not attached to new religious practice.

Matthew Liston: 18:58

Yeah, it's open to whoever, whoever wants to come, and could also be a good time to talk about where the practice has come from and that we didn't invent it. It's informed a lot by the work of Joanna Macy and the work that reconnects and recently also Francis Weller. Kit, who's been leading the the grief circles as well, has been Participating in some learning with with Francis Weller and we've been playing around with incorporating some of the components that he uses. Are there any other influences that you'd like to mention, bianca?

Bianca Pointner: 19:27

Yeah, so many processes that we engage in Basically also really drawn from a lot of indigenous wisdom as well. I like just a circle concepts and the way in a lot of indigenous communities, grief is being Acknowledged and held, so there's wisdom in that too.

Erin Thompson : 19:43

Then yeah, one, um one additional question for you also. You know a Fairly persistent, in my experience observation, maybe a critique about, about men is kind of the way that we do or don't engage with our emotions and especially grief. What's the typical makeup of a brief circle? Is it fairly, or can that even is there a typical makeup of maybe breakdown, neither in terms of Folks that don't finds men or women in the room, or or or other sorts of like Compositions that typify a grief circle?

Bianca Pointner: 20:29

Yeah, I think you already kind of spoke to it. I identify as a woman. I'm 34 years old and I usually find myself to be the youngest in the space, and Usually the majority of people that I've been in space with were people who identify as women as well. However, it has slightly changed over time. I see some, some changes in that. Actually, there's more and more of a diverse group of people coming. But, yeah, there's a wish in me that it would open up to even more, even across age and race and gender. Yeah, how about you man? How do you perceive it? I?

Matthew Liston: 21:04

agree that leaning into an Opening, expressing grief, especially with online, with the group people who'd never may never have met before, doesn't really fit into the mold of the stereotypical male identity, at least in the in the US, and I think that is reflected often in the grief circles. They're mostly made up of people who identify as women and and, like, like I said, it is shifting to and partly, I think, due to some feedback that we receive from male identifying folks who joined a grief circle and and so for. I mean, up until I started facilitating them, it was. They were all facilitated on. The online ones were facilitated by female identifying folks and so male yeah, I'll men join in and and not seen themselves represented in terms of the facilitators and it's it's intimidating and it's discouraging in a sense, and so, since I have started facilitating, it's interesting to notice who who joins and who returns and, yes, still predominantly female identifying women and and then it's also, but there are More and more men who are joining it.

Bianca Pointner: 22:06

There's also something to be said about Sending on a flyer that says grief circle. There's something about that title that seems to be, you know, intimidating. Sometimes we were kind of sneaky and said Conversations through tough times that was different. Then there was like a different outcome. It's interesting still. The word Grief, the word conflict is certain words that feel scary and intimidating to participate in.

Katie Thomas: 22:31

Yeah, Bianca, matt, we. So I heard you both kind of talk a little bit about grief as a Practice, and I'm curious about that because, yeah, for me, when I think about things like grief or even non-violence, you know, when I first joined the Institute it was kind of interesting and it was hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that these are things that are practices. It's not something that you can just you know, study and just choir the skills on how to be nonviolent or how to deal with grief. So you both kind of mentioned Incorporating grief in your life as a practice. So can you both speak to, like, what does that really look like? And I know the term that I've heard around, it is grief hygiene. Can you speak a little bit more about what grief hygiene is and what does that look like and how do you, yeah, practice grief?

Matthew Liston: 23:21

You want to go back on?

Bianca Pointner: 23:22

Sure, okay, it obviously changes over time. Certain strategies and practices I've done two years ago don't work right now or haven't worked in a while, and then it's like a constant creative process of figuring out what is meaningful to me. Also, again, mad, named China Macy, is one of the sources of inspiration of the work that reconnects is the work that she named it as dead, and I think that's really what it is is finding constant practices that reconnect me with something that's really deeply alive in me and that can be joy, that can be whatever on a spectrum and with grief looks different ways Sometimes. I just take, even just sometimes, five minutes out of the day to just notice when sadness comes up, to just sit with it and explore it and ask questions around it. So I'm curious whenever something shows up that it's uncomfortable, especially, you know, like being around other people and being in community and working in collaborating and other people sharing, or when things come up in relation, there's always something that can maybe be stimulated in me and I'm just trying to focus. Okay, so what's actually coming up? What is my body telling me? Where does it show up? Just be curious towards those notions and not numbing myself. And so it's like really constantly trying to practice to not numb. That's like really just important to me personally, and sometimes, when I haven't been in touch with it for a while, I do things like, yeah, listening to a song or paint and draw or seek conversation and sense, you know, like ask for empathy or something like that. It's also interesting.

Bianca Pointner: 25:00

I've been co-holding these grief circles for over two years and then I kind of stepped back from it for a while now, the last couple of months, to give a break. It's really interesting to notice what's happening when I'm not doing them, because sometimes it was like every week Thursday at noon I was like, okay, I'm not sure if I need it right now, like the scheduled thing, but now, not having had it for months, I'm noticing a lot of impact around that. And so, yeah, just like joining in on groups and also try not to do it all in isolation. I guess, and I think one step towards that is sometimes to just normalize naming when things are hard, in whatever context you're in, just to be honest about it yeah, things are tough right now just like normalize naming it. So these are some small things that I think you can do that I try to do, and I'm also not always successful in it. I think grief work is pretty radical in some ways. Yeah, how about you, matt?

Matthew Liston: 25:58

Yeah, I think for me, the grief hygiene the way I've been thinking about it recently it's a hygiene practice just like other hygiene practices, that I have to take care of a part of myself.

Matthew Liston: 26:08

So I try to exercise and stretch each week to take care of my physical health, and I also try to engage in a few activities each week to take care of my body's well-being.

Matthew Liston: 26:20

As it relates to grief and it's kind of funny, the image that is popping into my head right now is in the movie Elf, when he chugs this giant two liter bottle and then has this huge belch.

Matthew Liston: 26:32

So when I drink soda or bubbly water really fast, my body is like, okay, we got all this gas and here we need to get it out, and so sometimes that's a huge belch and sometimes it's like a little burp or a series of little burps. Right, and for me, if I'm taking in all this information from the world and a lot of it's hard and my body is processing it then, like we talked about earlier, like grief wants to come out, and so sometimes it might be a huge belch in terms of, like you know, a week of just being really down all the time and letting people know about it and sometimes it's just a series of little burps and so for me, like the grief circles each week and having that practice is like okay, a reliable spot, opportunity to burp myself so that I can like let it out and it doesn't just like build up inside.

Katie Thomas: 27:24

Yeah, I know that that is. Yeah, that's an amazing analogy. Thank you both so much for those answers.

Erin Thompson : 27:32

We want to open up space for any other thoughts that the two of you have relating to this topic of grief circles, grief hygiene.

Matthew Liston: 27:44

Not that there's pressure there, but if there is anything that hasn't been kind of covered with the questions that you've been asked that you think listeners would benefit from, yeah, one idea and one thought that's been coming up in discussions about grief circles and grief hygiene is the idea of grassroots mental health and how mental health has been very much so professionalized and there are some great benefits of it being professionalized and that people receive training on how to support community members with mental health, and they're more standard, so people aren't being taken advantage of, and a downside of that is then mental health, access to mental health services and mental support. Once again, there's more gatekeeping to it, and so the way I think of grief circles is that it is one option. It's not the only solution, but it's one option for community members to take care of each other and support each other in kind of a grassroots way to address mental health issues and support each other to build connection through a feeling and an experience that is often isolated.

Erin Thompson : 28:48

Decentralizing at the end and the hands of the community. Anything, you would add, bianca.

Bianca Pointner: 28:52

Yeah, adding to that actually, because maybe back to what might be some misconceptions, I'm a big fan of trying to not professionalize everything and meaning certificates for every little thing to have permission to do things. You know, and obviously grief is tender and it's scary and obviously in circles things can come up that you haven't you know, you had no idea, that surprises yourself. Even so, it's important to maybe then seek help, that is, yeah, with people, or you know, therapists or whatever that are skilled in that sense. But part of me thinks that, yeah, and you know, in the grief circle, of course, we have learned that certain parts of the structure and making it a structure within the ritual is important and has meaning and is important and its existence has viability. So I would definitely, whenever I would hold a circle, keep certain things in mind for good reason. But also, yeah, I love the idea that everyone can just, you know, bring people together and usually I would say be on your heart right now and you just, yeah, I'm with it together. What's not to like about that?

Bianca Pointner: 30:01

you know, and what's not meaningful about that, and I yeah, I've seen it pop up over, like all over Rochester that people tend to that as well. So that's pretty cool and I would love to join forces in that in some ways too. Yeah, and you know, share what we learn in the community and with so many wisdom, like so much wisdom within the community.

Katie Thomas: 30:23

So yeah, and I just want to go ahead and plug some upcoming opportunities for folks to get involved in grief work here at the Gandhi Institute. So I think Matt mentioned it before, but there are weekly grief circles that we hold where you can be with both Matt and Bianca online on Thursdays at noon. Right, until the end of this year.

Erin Thompson : 30:46

Well, on behalf of a podcast crew, thanks Matt, Thanks Bianca. This has been a real good discussion. Any last thoughts or words?

Katie Thomas: 30:54

Katie, Just appreciating you both for being here, thank you.

Matthew Liston: 30:59

Thank you.

Bianca Pointner: 30:59

Thank you, it was so lovely to chat with you about this.

Erin Thompson : 31:05

Thanks for listening in everyone. Thank you.